Death by BioDiesel

[Brucey]

Orig post by Humpa

Hey Brucey, making the statement that "I would rather eat the bread and have a surplus of grain..." is pretty bold and tad arrogent mate. Ask yourself this, how will the grain get to the terminal or even get out of the bloody field for that matter if there is no FUEL to run the machines??

I am pretty certain that our grain supplies are safe, it's OIL SEED you need to plant for Bio-d production i.e. cotton oil seed, oil palm seed, canola oil seed, rapseed oil seed, peanuts..... there are a few more but these produce very good yeilds per acre.

Humpa our grain supplies are not safe at the moment in WA there is not enough second grade grain to satisfy the demand for stock feed and just the other day it was mentioned that the pig produccers may have to reduce stock by up to 10% because of the lack of grain.

I never said that farmers should not grow an alternative such as the aforementioned Jatropha Curcas they just don't have the luxury at the moment of any spare grain and that is a world wide problem. My inlaws have been excellent dry farmers for 60yrs, and they are finnished its not because they don't know how to diversify they will grow anything if they only could, its called not enough rain. My bro in law is a very educated man with a degree in agriculture but I doubt that he can just up and grow and entirely new product that needs governemnt sponsorship and extensive trials which is hardly happening in this country while we are too busy paying for the current election.

[Brucey]

Check this link out for Jatropha Curcas plantations
BP backs Jatropha as a biodiesel feedstock « Envirofuel - Sustainable transport for Australia

Its clearly under serious consideration elsewhere with the backing of BP (Not saying if thats good or bad)

It could be one of the crops of the future for marginal country sadly its classed as a weed here at the moment.

[Peter @ Aawen4x4]

humpa & grimbo, I've spent some time just looking at bio-diesel from the devil's advocate point of view. I have a mate who was/is very much into bio-diesel (he's got a Masters in Environmental Management & is quite well respected in the bio-diesel field - he developed a simple solar powered plant for isolated communities to use in bio-diesel production that is now in use throughout the world) and he WAS keen that we should try his bio-diesel in our Patrols. We went searching to see what the con's were, and apart from finding all the recommendations that suggest you should NEVER use bio-diesel in machines with Rotary Injector pumps, we found that there is actually MORE information on the internet and from many very reputable sources that suggest that bio-diesel is NOT the silver bullet for dino-diesel nor the most wonderful thing that most people think. It changed his mind completely, and he is now working with people researching and developing 'Hybrid batteries' and Fuel Cells.

One of the things that very much stuck in my mind was the info about HOW MUCH of Australia (and the world's) arable land would need to be converted to cropping the absolute best of the currently available oil producing crops and even then it would only get close to meeting one fifth of our fuel needs if we limited the use of bio-diesel to the B5 level. And that was at CURRENT fuel usage rates!

So maybe looking at it a bit harder isn't such a bad thing to do?!

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by Irk

Oil and coal is still the way to go , there is still plenty of it and its relatively cheap. When they start mass fuel producing from sugar and grain every one will whinge and bitch about the cost of food. Also you dont have to irrigate oil or spray it with herbicides etc . We only have a national population equal to one american or chinese city etc yet we sit on 10% of the worlds resources. So its a bit of bullshit factor that we are making such a huge contribution to the so called "chicken little" ideas called global warming or that we are in imminent danger of an energy crisis from "Peak Oil" considering that Antarctica or the Great Barrier reef nor 90% of the continental shelfs just to name a few havent even been drilled yet. . If our politicians had the back bone to set our own fuel prices instead of letting self serving money hungry grubs like OPEC do it for us and nationalized energy supplies we all could drive V8's for 10 cents a litre. When it is time to change when all the oil is pumped all we need do then is adopt the technology that will have been developed by the energy starved countries . To do anything less makes as much sense as drinking recycled shitwater when you could just pump fresh stuff out the river.

Irk, I seriously hope you are joking mate with this comment.

Lets look at a few facts:

According to Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Australia had 1.6 billion barrels of proven oil reserves as of January 1, 2007. The majority of these reserves are located off Western Australia in the Carnarvon basin and in the Bass Strait off Southern Australia. Oil production in Australia has increased gradually since 1980, peaking in 2000 at 805,000 thousand barrels per day (bbl/d). In 2003, production fell dramatically to 630,522 bbl/d. In 2006, Australia produced approximately 562,000 bbl/d of oil. Australia has experienced decreasing oil production due to oil producing basins such as Cooper-Eromanga and Gippsland experiencing natural declines, coupled with a lack of new fields coming online.


So, we don't have enough for our own needs Irk. You can get oil from coal and from shale, but both are expensive processes. For your 10c per litre fuel be prepared to pay a heap more other taxes. In the middle east fuel is sold for these sort of prices because the costs of extraction are bugger all compared with those here (much more expensive to operate a rig in Bass strait than a derrick in the desert).

Per head of population I think we actually emit more CO2 than any other country. I concede though that this is 3/5ths of 5/8th of bugger all compared to China, BUT, if we want China and the rest of the world to restrain their CO2 production we need to set the example along with the other developed nations (nearly all of whom ratified the Kyoto protocol and most have taken serious steps to do restrict CO2 production).

According to the recent article in Wheels (Sept 07) of the five largest oil deposits, all were discovered before the end of 1961, the largest two in 1948 and 1938. Only one well drilled in 100 (and the wells aren't just randomly sunk - they only drill in areas thought to contain oil) is a significant oilfield. Further:

"Only 50 supergiant oilfields have ever been discovered. The most recent was in 2000 - 10 Billion barrels of problematically acidic crude. It was the first big discovery since 1975."

And:

"It's clear: most of the Earth's oil has already been found."

You quote:

"When it is time to change when all the oil is pumped all we need do then is adopt the technology that will have been developed by the energy starved countries ."

Um, yep, and they'll be climbing out of their skin to give us this new technology seeing as we went jack on them. Either that or they'll sell it to us at a price that will ensure we will be the next poor country.

Your comment about the water seems to be similarly uninformed - you go ahead and drink the sludge that is the Murray river now (there's bugger all flow) - I'll drink reverse osmosis purified sewage any day over that.

[Irk]

Originally Posted by Marc 1

Irk, I seriously hope you are joking mate with this comment.

Lets look at a few facts:

According to Oil and Gas Journal (OGJ), Australia had 1.6 billion barrels of proven oil reserves as of January 1, 2007. The majority of these reserves are located off Western Australia in the Carnarvon basin and in the Bass Strait off Southern Australia. Oil production in Australia has increased gradually since 1980, peaking in 2000 at 805,000 thousand barrels per day (bbl/d). In 2003, production fell dramatically to 630,522 bbl/d. In 2006, Australia produced approximately 562,000 bbl/d of oil. Australia has experienced decreasing oil production due to oil producing basins such as Cooper-Eromanga and Gippsland experiencing natural declines, coupled with a lack of new fields coming online.


So, we don't have enough for our own needs Irk. You can get oil from coal and from shale, but both are expensive processes. For your 10c per litre fuel be prepared to pay a heap more other taxes. In the middle east fuel is sold for these sort of prices because the costs of extraction are bugger all compared with those here (much more expensive to operate a rig in Bass strait than a derrick in the desert).

Per head of population I think we actually emit more CO2 than any other country. I concede though that this is 3/5ths of 5/8th of bugger all compared to China, BUT, if we want China and the rest of the world to restrain their CO2 production we need to set the example along with the other developed nations (nearly all of whom ratified the Kyoto protocol and most have taken serious steps to do restrict CO2 production).

According to the recent article in Wheels (Sept 07) of the five largest oil deposits, all were discovered before the end of 1961, the largest two in 1948 and 1938. Only one well drilled in 100 (and the wells aren't just randomly sunk - they only drill in areas thought to contain oil) is a significant oilfield. Further:

"Only 50 supergiant oilfields have ever been discovered. The most recent was in 2000 - 10 Billion barrels of problematically acidic crude. It was the first big discovery since 1975."

And:

"It's clear: most of the Earth's oil has already been found."

You quote:

"When it is time to change when all the oil is pumped all we need do then is adopt the technology that will have been developed by the energy starved countries ."

Um, yep, and they'll be climbing out of their skin to give us this new technology seeing as we went jack on them. Either that or they'll sell it to us at a price that will ensure we will be the next poor country.

Your comment about the water seems to be similarly uninformed - you go ahead and drink the sludge that is the Murray river now (there's bugger all flow) - I'll drink reverse osmosis purified sewage any day over that.

Penn Well petroleum group owns the Journal you quote i wonder if they have a vested interest in talking up oil price?
You really think us setting a example to the Chinese will make the clean and green? Shenhua Group Corporation, China’s largest coal producer, is constructing the world’s first commercial direct coal liquefaction facility in the Inner Mongolia autonomous region. An estimated US$850 million investment in the initial phase of the project is expected to transform 7110 tonnes of subbituminous coal into 20 000 barrels of ultraclean, low sulfur, diesel and gasoline a day by 2007. Two trains are planned for the first phase, with an additional seven trains in the second phase and a total investment in excess of US$5 billion (Fletcher et al. 2004). I wonder how much of our 97 BILLION tonnes of proven coal reserves are going to help supply that little plant? We have more but like the oil we havent explored ALL the spots. Dont kid yourself that in the future the Barrier reef and Antarctica wont be explored and drill . Consider our oil and gas supplies and ask yourself again if you think we get a good deal from Opec just because we buy a bit.

oil and gas outlook

2005 2006 f 2007 f %
World change
Production mbd 84.0 86.4 88.2 2.1
Consumption mbd 83.6 84.9 86.0 1.3
Trade weighted crude oil
price US$/bbl 49.57 61.02 55.95 – 8.3
West Texas Intermediate crude
oil price US$/bbl 56.55 69.00 65.00 – 5.8

2004 2005 2006
Australia -05 -06 s -07 f
Crude oil and condensate
Production ML 27 311 24 545 27 073 10.3
Exports ML 15 731 14 266 16 887 18.4
– value A$m 6 330 7 460 9 792 31.3
Imports ML 26 054 24 495 24 764 1.1
Natural gas
Production Gm3 41.3 42.7 49.1 15.0
LNG exports Mt 10.59 12.27 15.30 24.7
– value A$m 3 199 4 586 6 927 51.0
LPG
Production ML 4 628 4 635 4 644 0.2
Exports ML 2 844 2 865 2 990 4.4
– value A$m 804 1 062 1 177 10.8
Petroleum products
Refinery
production ML 40 202 37 341 38 640 3.5
Exports ML 1 847 2 575 2 553 – 0.9
Imports ML 11 188 13 934 12 850 – 7.8
Consumption
– total net ML 54 017 55 151 56 310 2.1
NOTE How much LPG and LNG we IMPORT have a look at the oil figures we produce . We should all be driving on 10 cents a litre as we DO produce more than we use and we have the CAPACITY to produce a lot more if we had a Govt with backbone and less people convinced we are down to our last drum of kerosene and need to quickly grow some more sugar cane .
We import fuel because we dont refine enough for our own use ,the same thing we do with steel we export the raw iron ore then buy it back as cheap Asian steel. Why was oil only worth $35 a barrel 4 yrs ago didnt they know we were running out?.australian commodities: june 2006 - energy > oil and gas

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by Irk

Penn Well petroleum group owns the Journal you quote i wonder if they have a vested interest in talking up oil price?
You really think us setting a example to the Chinese will make the clean and green? Shenhua Group Corporation, China’s largest coal producer, is constructing the world’s first commercial direct coal liquefaction facility in the Inner Mongolia autonomous region. An estimated US$850 million investment in the initial phase of the project is expected to transform 7110 tonnes of subbituminous coal into 20 000 barrels of ultraclean, low sulfur, diesel and gasoline a day by 2007. Two trains are planned for the first phase, with an additional seven trains in the second phase and a total investment in excess of US$5 billion (Fletcher et al. 2004). I wonder how much of our 97 BILLION tonnes of proven coal reserves are going to help supply that little plant? We have more but like the oil we havent explored ALL the spots. Dont kid yourself that in the future the Barrier reef and Antarctica wont be explored and drill . Consider our oil and gas supplies and ask yourself again if you think we get a good deal from Opec just because we buy a bit.

oil and gas outlook

2005 2006 f 2007 f %
World change
Production mbd 84.0 86.4 88.2 2.1
Consumption mbd 83.6 84.9 86.0 1.3
Trade weighted crude oil
price US$/bbl 49.57 61.02 55.95 – 8.3
West Texas Intermediate crude
oil price US$/bbl 56.55 69.00 65.00 – 5.8

2004 2005 2006
Australia -05 -06 s -07 f
Crude oil and condensate
Production ML 27 311 24 545 27 073 10.3
Exports ML 15 731 14 266 16 887 18.4
– value A$m 6 330 7 460 9 792 31.3
Imports ML 26 054 24 495 24 764 1.1
Natural gas
Production Gm3 41.3 42.7 49.1 15.0
LNG exports Mt 10.59 12.27 15.30 24.7
– value A$m 3 199 4 586 6 927 51.0
LPG
Production ML 4 628 4 635 4 644 0.2
Exports ML 2 844 2 865 2 990 4.4
– value A$m 804 1 062 1 177 10.8
Petroleum products
Refinery
production ML 40 202 37 341 38 640 3.5
Exports ML 1 847 2 575 2 553 – 0.9
Imports ML 11 188 13 934 12 850 – 7.8
Consumption
– total net ML 54 017 55 151 56 310 2.1
NOTE How much LPG and LNG we IMPORT have a look at the oil figures we produce . We should all be driving on 10 cents a litre as we DO produce more than we use and we have the CAPACITY to produce a lot more if we had a Govt with backbone and less people convinced we are down to our last drum of kerosene and need to quickly grow some more sugar cane .
We import fuel because we dont refine enough for our own use ,the same thing we do with steel we export the raw iron ore then buy it back as cheap Asian steel. Why was oil only worth $35 a barrel 4 yrs ago didnt they know we were running out?.australian commodities: june 2006 - energy > oil and gas

Thanks for adding to the research on this. But your own figures show we do not produce enough to satisfy our own needs. The amount we need to run the country is what we produce plus what we import minus what we export. Let me tabulate the figures you provided:

Year Produce Import Export Shortfall
2004 27 311 26 054 15 731 10,323

So if we add up what we produce (27,311) plus what we import (26,054), minus what we export(15,731) you'll find that our economy needs 37,634 ML (Mega litres?) to run. If we only produce 27,311 SHOW ME HOW WE ARE SELF SUFFICIENT? WE ARE SHORT 10,323ML per year. Your own figures show that and back up the graph I posted above. So I really couldn't care that Penn Well Petroleum group owns the journal, the information contained within looks accurate and is backed up by your figures and the Wheels magazine article I cited. The figures are also accurate enough to be used by the US government the link is here: Energy Information Administration - EIA - Official Energy Statistics from the U.S. Government .

I think you'll find the reason we export the oil we produce (going from memory here) is that its 'heavy' crude - not the 'Light Sweet' crude that gets refined domestically. So there's yet another reason why we cannot be self sufficient.

Show me where it says we import LNG or LPG? We are swimming in the stuff. Again, your own figures show this.

There are more reasons than price for the Chinese to produce their own coal to oil plant. The Chinese are becoming increasingly dependent on overseas oil for its economy to function (see graph).

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Given the massive expansion of China's millitary and their belligerant attitude toward Taiwan, my guess is they are prepared to wear the increased costs of the fuel produced in that plant because it adds to their security.

I have heard that the Bowen Basin in Qld has enough coal to keep Australia in energy for the next 200 years, I'm just not that sure it's in the earth's best interests (or Australia's) to dig it up.

So, we don't have enough Oil to be self sufficient, the oil that we do have is fairly expensive to produce (compared to other countries) and Coal To Liquid (CTL) must be uneconomic or more countries would be doing it. How is this going to give us 10c per litre fuel? How did you get a price of 10C per litre anyway?

Speaking of money, the government makes 38 cents in excise plus 10% GST on each litre (lets be conservative say a litre is sold for $1.00) so 10 cents there too. So we pay .48 cents in taxes for each litre. In 2002 we used 26,164,000,000 litres of fuels (9208.0 - Survey of Motor Vehicle Use, Australia, Oct 2002 )
Where do you propose the government get the $12.6 Billion dollar shortfall from?

Oil prices. OPEC does not set the price of oil. It sets production quotas, and the marketplace sets the price of oil. Factors such as instability in the middle east, extra cold winters in the northern hemisphere, hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico all affect either the demand for the oil or the ability to supply that demand. Below is an excerpt from Wikipedia that gives an overview of what happened to the price and why:

The price of standard crude oil on NYMEX was under $25/barrel in September 2003, but by August 11, 2005, it had risen to over $60/barrel, and traded at over $80 before closing at a record high of $83.90/barrel on September 20, 2007[1]. Experts have attributed the dramatic increase in prices to a variety of factors, including North Korea's missile launches, the Crisis between Israel and Lebanon, Iranian nuclear brinkmanship, and reports from the U.S. Department of Energy showing a decline in petroleum reserves. [2] While oil prices in mid-2006 were considerably higher than a few years earlier, they still fall roughly $14 from exceeding the inflation-adjusted peak of the 1980 shock, when prices exceeded what would be equivalent to $90 a barrel.

When it comes to your comments about reducing global warming, how do you propose we get the 2.25 billion people in China and India to start reducing their carbon emissions? Invade them? Stop sending our coal overseas? Or do we just stick our heads in the sand and pretend its not happening? Every single school of leadership would say you start by setting the example, setting targets (and achieving them) and participate in the development of ecofrindly technologies. You back up the softly softly approach with the 'stick' of a carbon trading scheme - howzat for a start?

Righto mate, I've backed up most of what i've said. Where do you get the idea that we can pay 10c per litre? How do you propose the government get back the dollars lost in exise?

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by Peter @ Aawen4x4

One of the things that very much stuck in my mind was the info about HOW MUCH of Australia (and the world's) arable land would need to be converted to cropping the absolute best of the currently available oil producing crops and even then it would only get close to meeting one fifth of our fuel needs if we limited the use of bio-diesel to the B5 level. And that was at CURRENT fuel usage rates!

So maybe looking at it a bit harder isn't such a bad thing to do?!

Peter, I think your are partially right here, and that will mean the future will be different to what we have today. So saying that we will need to replace our current fuel needs may be misleading. In the future combinations of technologies will probably be replacing fuel as we know it today. Maybe the future will be many more electric vehicles for the daily grind to the office, maybe compressed air, fuel cell vehicles running on Hydrogen (with the electricity hopefully produced by renewables), vehicles running on Ethanol and Biodiesel. Maybe there will be far more telecommuting? You can predict that getting biofuels from grain crops will be viewed the same way as we now look at carbon battery's - in the future algae and plants like Jatropha will be a far more likely source as Lithium battery's are seen today. Maybe the government will finally upgrade rail in this country as it is ten times more efficient to send a load by rail than on the road (removing masses of long haul trucks). Who knows, but you can almost guarantee that transport future will not be a one for one replacement on biofuels.

[peteinoz]

damn...

after reading this last page of this thread.. I feel like I just earned my MD in Oil Economics

pete

[Irk]

Marc1 as you said we import it BECAUSE we dont refine it here . Its not that we can not meet all our energy needs it is just we dont have the refining capacity to do so.10323ml shortfall simple solution build more refineries devolop more reserves , use the vast amounts of gas we produce and EXPLORE more instead of letting some greenie hold it back. Consider Chávez seeks to peg oil at $50 a barrel


· Price could see Venezuela producing for 200 years
· Country's reserves may exceed Saudi Arabia's
According to US sources, Venezuela holds 90% of the world's extra heavy crude oil - deposits which have to be turned into synthetic light crude before they can be refined and which only become economic to operate with the oil price at about $40 a barrel.
Mark Milner
Monday April 3, 2006
The Guardian
"Venezuela, Iran set to hold up oil price"Venezuela and Iran have strengthened their growing ties with a stream of anti-US statements, a commitment to create a $US2 billion ($A2.55 billion) social fund and a pledge to push for a cut in world oil supplies to counter plunging prices.REUTERS

Wall Street Journal
March 27, 2000

Why Oil Price Tripled in 15 Months
Even as Nations Strove to Limit It
By STEVE LIESMAN and JOHN J. FIALKA
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Last October, Mexico's energy secretary said he couldn't see the price of oil reaching $30 a barrel. Forecasts didn't point that way, and the oil-producing nations didn't want it to go that high.
In November, the U.S. Energy Department's chief oil expert scoured the data for evidence that U.S. oil supplies were shrinking, but found little. Supplies appeared to be within a normal range.
Carbon trading is a farce it will make about as much impact on China as our outrage? that their Goverment allows prisoners to be murdered for body parts and/or jailed for the religion they want to practise. Softly softly as we burn Arab oil hasnt stopped Saudi Arabia beheading those who renounce/ denounce islam

Venezuela fuel price is 12 us cents /gallon not a litre a gallon so with a more developed industry and refining capacity there is no reason Austraians cant have fuel at 10cents a litre. It is just a case of political will to stand up to the oil cartels and for the Goverment to have the backbone to nationalize energy.BUILD more REFINERIES and DEVELOP the resource it isnt rocket science if Sth Americans can refine heavy crude what is stopping retard Aussies doing it? Failed political will in the face of big oil and enviro nazis screaming about developing so called pristine wildeness and the average Australian suffers at the pump when he doesnt really have to.

[Marc 1]

Irk, good morning mate.

1. The only problem with your idea to build more refinery's is that we still do not extract enough oil to make ourselves self sufficient. You cannot refine thin air and turn it into fuel. And the situation is only going to get worse (see the graph about Australia's consumption and production above) as we need more and pump less. Your idea about developing more reserves has merit if we had the reserves. I'm not keen on our economoc future being dependent on finding more oil locally.

2. At $50 a barrel we were paying a bit over a dollar a litre. Take away all the government taxes and we might see fuel at 60 cents a litre. How does this achieve your 10 cent target? The phrase about Chavez seeking to hold oil prices at $50 per barrel was that he didn't want prices to drop below that amount. He and Iran are seeking to maximise the revenue they get from their oil. Why? So they can get as much money as they can for their oil (and in economic theorem, more money is always better than less money) and so they can subsidise oil the price of fuel in their own domestic market. And in the case of Iran subsidise the little war they have going on next door and anywhere else 'the great infidel' happens to be.

3. The comment you have on why the oil price tripleby some in 15 months must be seriously old. Oil prices haven't been below $30 a barrel since before 9/11. It's an opinion piece, not scientific research by some columnist. What were you seeking to prove by listing it?

4. Refining heavy crude into fuel products as you said yourself is only viable economically when oil reaches $40 per barrel. At $40 a barrel we were paying domestically about 90 cents per litre - take away the excise and taxes and it would still be 40 to 50 cents per litre for our fuel. We also may not be able to refine it locally which is why we export it. Building a new refinery takes time and hundreds of millions of dollars. The cost of cracking this heavy crude would be more than doing the light sweet crude so you'd probably be back at 60+ cents per litre.

5. Venezuela.

Chávez's political opposition, alleging electoral fraud, withdrew from and boycotted the 2005 parliamentary election. Consequently, the MVR-led bloc secured all 167 seats in the National Assembly. Then, the MVR voted to dissolve itself in favor of joining the proposed United Socialist Party of Venezuela, while Chávez requested that MVR-allied parties merge themselves into it as well. The National Assembly has twice voted to grant Chávez the ability rule by decree in several broadly defined areas, once in 2000 and again in 2007,[18][19] leading the current Venezuela toward dictatorship according to many.

A communist dictatorship. No wonder they can set fuel prices where they want. Venezuela produces 2.86 million barrels per day, and exports 2.36 million (figures from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html). No wonder they can subsidise the local fuel price. They are swimming in money.

Irk if you get tired of living here where you seem to believe there is a giant conspiracy to charge you a 1,200% premium for your fuel then feel free to live in Venezuela. The infant mortality rate is five times higher than developed countries, the child malnutrition rate stands at 17% and the average GDP per head is $7,165 as opposed to $39,320. (all info obtained from Wikipedia).

[Irk]

Originally Posted by Marc 1

Irk, good morning mate.

1. The only problem with your idea to build more refinery's is that we still do not extract enough oil to make ourselves self sufficient. You cannot refine thin air and turn it into fuel. And the situation is only going to get worse (see the graph about Australia's consumption and production above) as we need more and pump less. Your idea about developing more reserves has merit if we had the reserves. I'm not keen on our economoc future being dependent on finding more oil locally.

2. At $50 a barrel we were paying a bit over a dollar a litre. Take away all the government taxes and we might see fuel at 60 cents a litre. How does this achieve your 10 cent target? The phrase about Chavez seeking to hold oil prices at $50 per barrel was that he didn't want prices to drop below that amount. He and Iran are seeking to maximise the revenue they get from their oil. Why? So they can get as much money as they can for their oil (and in economic theorem, more money is always better than less money) and so they can subsidise oil the price of fuel in their own domestic market. And in the case of Iran subsidise the little war they have going on next door and anywhere else 'the great infidel' happens to be.

3. The comment you have on why the oil price tripleby some in 15 months must be seriously old. Oil prices haven't been below $30 a barrel since before 9/11. It's an opinion piece, not scientific research by some columnist. What were you seeking to prove by listing it?

4. Refining heavy crude into fuel products as you said yourself is only viable economically when oil reaches $40 per barrel. At $40 a barrel we were paying domestically about 90 cents per litre - take away the excise and taxes and it would still be 40 to 50 cents per litre for our fuel. We also may not be able to refine it locally which is why we export it. Building a new refinery takes time and hundreds of millions of dollars. The cost of cracking this heavy crude would be more than doing the light sweet crude so you'd probably be back at 60+ cents per litre.

5. Venezuela.

Chávez's political opposition, alleging electoral fraud, withdrew from and boycotted the 2005 parliamentary election. Consequently, the MVR-led bloc secured all 167 seats in the National Assembly. Then, the MVR voted to dissolve itself in favor of joining the proposed United Socialist Party of Venezuela, while Chávez requested that MVR-allied parties merge themselves into it as well. The National Assembly has twice voted to grant Chávez the ability rule by decree in several broadly defined areas, once in 2000 and again in 2007,[18][19] leading the current Venezuela toward dictatorship according to many.

A communist dictatorship. No wonder they can set fuel prices where they want. Venezuela produces 2.86 million barrels per day, and exports 2.36 million (figures from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html). No wonder they can subsidise the local fuel price. They are swimming in money.

Irk if you get tired of living here where you seem to believe there is a giant conspiracy to charge you a 1,200% premium for your fuel then feel free to live in Venezuela. The infant mortality rate is five times higher than developed countries, the child malnutrition rate stands at 17% and the average GDP per head is $7,165 as opposed to $39,320. (all info obtained from Wikipedia).

again we need to do more exploration and refining of our own reserves we have plenty of energy , as for me going to sth america im fine here but do you not buy chinese stuff to protest their energy policy ? do you not burn Arab oil to show them a better way? or is it only living standards that suit you that count?

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by Irk

again we need to do more exploration and refining of our own reserves we have plenty of energy , as for me going to sth america im fine here but do you not buy chinese stuff to protest their energy policy ? do you not burn Arab oil to show them a better way? or is it only living standards that suit you that count?

Irk I don't get what you are on about here. Your original post was about oil, now you seemed to be talking about human rights? What's your point?

I do buy Chinese goods, I do use arab oil. I also eat animal flesh that had to die for me to eat it, and my dog lives outside where it is cold at night.

The oil and global warming thing worries me so I do what I can to reduce my carbon impact. My Daihatsu (in which I cover 35-40 thousand k's per year) gets over 51MPG, My Subaru (which does less than 15,000km this yr) gets 32MPG. I run most of my office off 12 volt power with Solar panels, and I monitor the energy use of my home and use CFL's. I cannot do what I want to do around the house because we rent and move frequently.

What do you do?

Another thought occurs to me, at your proposed 10c per litre do you think our consumption will rise or fall, and what do you think will happen to the amount of carbon we emit? I take it you believe global warmig is a conspiracy too.

Of all the countries that have their act together I reckon the Norwegians have it right. They produce masses of oil, are self sufficient and export a heap. Despite this their fuel is $2.50 per litre. The government is investing the massive oil revenues for the future so when the oil runs out the people of Norway will still be benefiting from oil. Seems smart to me.

[Irk]

It is about human rights , our right to burn our energy as a cheaper cost . You were the one who wants to lead the way so huge carbon emitters will look to us for carbon credits and we will lead them into clean energy. Its a pipe dream , China and India etc are not going to stop using coal or dirty technology because we are . Every four days china is building new energy consuming industries that use the equivalent of Australias total emmissions. I t has been reported that they are planning 500 new power plants over the next few yrs . Industry in these countries will not pay for it as at the bottom line it hurts profits. If you cast your mind back 30 yrs it was a cooling planet we were going to suffer from all the emissions though now the idea is we are warming. We are talking about LESS than one half of 1% increase in CO2 in the last 300yrs so lets not get to excited . Y2K was suppose to have the sky falling also remember . The weather thru the centuries has been cyclical its just a fact of life. When was the hottest day in the US recorded? 1913 When was the hottest day in Australia? 53.1c at Cloncurry 1889 "Longest hot spell (world): Marble Bar, W. Australia, 100 °F (38 °C) (or above) for 162 consecutive days, Oct. 30, 1923 to Apr. 7, 1924." Australian temperatures have increased by approximately 0.9ºC since 1910 with nation’s annual mean temperature for 2005 was 1.09°C above the standard 1961-90 average, making it the warmest year since reliable, widespread temperature observations became available in 1910.© Copyright Commonwealth of Australia 2007, Bureau of Meteorology ....RELIABLE since only 1910 being the operative word !!! what a gigantic base line to base the Global Warming Conspiracy on but its the huge increase in temperature that proves it apparently 0.9 degrees wow it must be true a huge increase like that couldnt be just a variation could it? Though to be fair WA has had up to 3 degrees above average for some of the mths. In my opinion GW like the energy crisis is more beat up than reality . Its like Du Pont claiming R12 is bad for the ozone and we have a new gas that isnt and for a small fortune we will licence you to use it. It wont matter when fuel is a $100 a litre people will still burn it , my argument is why do we have to pay thru the nose for a substance we have in abundance reguardless you thinking we dont. How much oil do you think is under the GBR??? Make the oil from coal . If we dont and the energy starved countries cant access it they will come here and take it by force just like the japanese tried 65 yrs ago. They dont have less people and more resources now than the did then do they?

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by Irk

It is about human rights , our right to burn our energy as a cheaper cost . You were the one who wants to lead the way so huge carbon emitters will look to us for carbon credits and we will lead them into clean energy. Its a pipe dream , China and India etc are not going to stop using coal or dirty technology because we are . Every four days china is building new energy consuming industries that use the equivalent of Australias total emmissions. I t has been reported that they are planning 500 new power plants over the next few yrs . Industry in these countries will not pay for it as at the bottom line it hurts profits. If you cast your mind back 30 yrs it was a cooling planet we were going to suffer from all the emissions though now the idea is we are warming. We are talking about LESS than one half of 1% increase in CO2 in the last 300yrs so lets not get to excited . Y2K was suppose to have the sky falling also remember . The weather thru the centuries has been cyclical its just a fact of life. When was the hottest day in the US recorded? 1913 When was the hottest day in Australia? 53.1c at Cloncurry 1889 "Longest hot spell (world): Marble Bar, W. Australia, 100 °F (38 °C) (or above) for 162 consecutive days, Oct. 30, 1923 to Apr. 7, 1924." Australian temperatures have increased by approximately 0.9ºC since 1910 with nation’s annual mean temperature for 2005 was 1.09°C above the standard 1961-90 average, making it the warmest year since reliable, widespread temperature observations became available in 1910.© Copyright Commonwealth of Australia 2007, Bureau of Meteorology ....RELIABLE since only 1910 being the operative word !!! what a gigantic base line to base the Global Warming Conspiracy on but its the huge increase in temperature that proves it apparently 0.9 degrees wow it must be true a huge increase like that couldnt be just a variation could it? Though to be fair WA has had up to 3 degrees above average for some of the mths. In my opinion GW like the energy crisis is more beat up than reality . Its like Du Pont claiming R12 is bad for the ozone and we have a new gas that isnt and for a small fortune we will licence you to use it. It wont matter when fuel is a $100 a litre people will still burn it , my argument is why do we have to pay thru the nose for a substance we have in abundance reguardless you thinking we dont. How much oil do you think is under the GBR??? Make the oil from coal . If we dont and the energy starved countries cant access it they will come here and take it by force just like the japanese tried 65 yrs ago. They dont have less people and more resources now than the did then do they?

Yep whatever. Its clear that you think nearly everything is a global conspiracy. Bugger science, you just go with your suspicions. Stats such as those above can be pickpocketed at will to prove whatever you want. Last year is on record as the hottest yet on record for the planet - you don't need to pick individual locations on a particular day to prove that. Go see "An Inconvenient Truth, read Dr Tim Flannery's book - he's the Australian of the year and has a great deal of credibility on the topic.

Are you serious believing R12 and other CFC's had no role in the hole in the Ozone layer? This is one of man's near dissasters that we (just) saved. Read Tim Flannery's book about how close we came to seriously stuffing up the fix for that problem too. Why is it that the hole is now closing since we stopped using the stuff? Come on man, that is simple cause and effect stuff. The evidence is there.

If the fight against global emissions is a pipe dream why is there concern, targets and action on the subject pretty much world wide? Wierdo greenies would have us turning off the power an scrapping the cars and eating grass tomorrow, sure that would possibly fix the problem of global warming, but it would seriously stuff all the people of the world. Change is happening you just can't see it because it is gradual. Incandescent light bulbs are being phased out, new houses have minimum energy ratings, even local governments have mandated renewable energy targets for power production (they don't put up wind turbines because they are more efficient than a coal fired power station). And that's just here, overseas they have minimum efficiency standards for appliances, realistic rebate schemes for the installation of solar power etc. Fuel economy standards are being changed in Europe. Again I ask you to join the movement, don't just stick you head under a pillow and say it's too hard look at China. It knda smacks of the old "he did it so I did too" that I remember from the schoolyard.

To your last point, if we research and develop renewable sources of energy and more efficient ways of doing the energy hungry things we do now and export the technology to our neighbours (you know, get smart, invent and export smart appliances/generation systems rather than digging up coal and iron ore and shipping it overseas). That way we won't need to be invaded. If you believe the reports it'll be water not energy that the next major conflics are over.

That's it from me - I think people are probably sick of the Irk and Marc1 show. See ya.

[humpa]

Originally Posted by Brucey

Orig post by Humpa

Humpa our grain supplies are not safe at the moment in WA there is not enough second grade grain to satisfy the demand for stock feed and just the other day it was mentioned that the pig produccers may have to reduce stock by up to 10% because of the lack of grain.

I never said that farmers should not grow an alternative such as the aforementioned Jatropha Curcas they just don't have the luxury at the moment of any spare grain and that is a world wide problem. My inlaws have been excellent dry farmers for 60yrs, and they are finnished its not because they don't know how to diversify they will grow anything if they only could, its called not enough rain. My bro in law is a very educated man with a degree in agriculture but I doubt that he can just up and grow and entirely new product that needs governemnt sponsorship and extensive trials which is hardly happening in this country while we are too busy paying for the current election.

Hiya Brucey,

Mate don't get me wrong here, I'm not havin a go at the farmers or saying you were wrong, The lack of rain is big news in our Nth West ag district aswell and I agree whole heartedly, the Govt is all talk when it comes to helping out our farmers and they are dropping their lots in droves because they cannot grow a crop. I am SO hopeful the next election will fix that for a while anyway but I am dubious.

My point was simply, there is no point in looking at this problem for a negative perspective because whether we like it or not, something has to be done about aleviating our looming fuel issues, and from what I can find, Bio-fuels appears the most logical step in the evolutionary cycle !

Cheers mate....................

[humpa]

Holy CRAP.............

You guys are way cool !!!!!

I just went looking for my post and read through the chronicles of hydrocarbon economic evolution !!

As for fuel pump types causing issues Pete, I would have to debate the validity of the reasoning behind that from an engineering perspective. One would think that pump type would be irrelevent here. If Bio-d is wrecking one type, why wouldn't it affect ALL types ??! I use the stuff every day in both rigs and different pumps and have done so for a while and I have NO ill effects from it.

I think I will stick to tried and tested as my basis for using it !!!

The fella's that lectured me are Industrial Chemists and they examined Bio-d at the molecular level and are happy with putting their family home up for a double mortgage to fund it's future development. I guess thats a pretty good reason to trust what they are saying !!

I am going to stick to my reason for posting positively on Bio-fuel................. We need it sorted now so we can use it because we are running out of the other stuff and as yet still need it for many more things we have no replacement for !

Cheers Marc and Irk........ Bloody good work !!!
I think your fingers deserve a beer..............

[zagan]

Originally Posted by Nev62

Hi all. Well I learnt an expensive lesson why I didn't use bio diesel in the past. Just to back-track a tad in time...

Engine is a GM 6.5lt V8 diesel (in my FJ62) only rebuilt some 5 years ago.

No power (40kmh going up steep hills)
Surging (most noticable when tank was almost emtpy)
Slight miss in the engine (very hard to hear)
Transmission seemed to be shot by either not kicking down soon enough or kicking down too soon.
A little rough when just idling.
Fast temp rise when under load.
Tacking noise (like really loud tappets or lifters) under normal driving but not noticable unlight load or heavy load.

Presonnaly I'd say you got done by wrong info.

I've been using Bio-diesel from the cheap places for about a year, I've had no problems other a leaking injector pump.

The leaking injector pump comes from the fact that bio-diesel will shrink the old ruber seals and O-rings in the injector pump.

Other than that your shouldn't have any problems and that's even saying you have the old ruber seals, in fact the diesel engine should run better as the natural oil will lube up the vavles and injectors thus increasing their service life.

This sounds more like a case of poor servicing than anything to do with Bio-diesel.

as part of servicing a Diesel engine your also meant to adjust the tappets, don't adjust these if needed will cause
dieseling (turn off the engine and it keeps running)
poor power as the valves won't be opening and closing properly

The surging is because the injector pump sucks the diesel up from the fuel tank, so if your tank is too empty and your going up a hill or turning around a corner too fast, it'll surge because it can't suck in enough fuel to fill up the fuel rail thus the injector pump runs dry and it can wreak the injector pump or it simply dies as it can't suck up any diesel at all.

Injector pumps should be rebuilt every 150,000klms.
Injectors basicly only last for 100,000klms if your over that you'll end up running into some sort of injector problems soon.

I agree that the main point in servicing a diesel is pretty much just the oil and the filters but you do have to check out a couple other things as well every now and then other wise you'll get problems like you have.

[slipperyGU]

you no copy n pasting is a form of plagerism im not sure how to spell that...

anyways out of alot of the posted comments in this thread im ready to start using bio diesel now... after all i hate hot weather and love the beach now i jus need to know a couple of things...

if i have 98 Gu patrol 2.8ltd in what order wot i do the things i need to do b4 i use my first tank of bio... i travel 101k's per day round trip to work so im after an y sorta saving to get to work and home. so if anyoine wiser than me has a 98 gu and is running bio without n e issues please inform me on what u did to prepare ur engine for it... and a rough cost... cheers guys

[grimbo]

I'm running a 4.2 NA diesel in a 98 GU and am running the B20 blend bo and have done nothing to prepare the engine. it runs better, has more perceived power and doesn't blow smoke. I will be using a couple of tanks of the B100 in the next week or so prior to a service where I will change all filters.

[Marc 1]

Originally Posted by slipperyGU

you no copy n pasting is a form of plagerism im not sure how to spell that...

Only if you don't attribute the information (tell everyone where you found it) or provide a link to it.